Thanks again, Monica, for pointing me in this guy’s direction. Dude’s a fricken genius. His review of TLJ was fascinating, and he just posted his commentary on the TLJ novel. I encourage anyone who’s interested in Reylo or the mythology of Star Wars as a whole to listen to it. I saw little to no Reylo in the novel, but he saw Reylo and Save Ben Solo everywhere. I don’t hate the book as much now after he took me to school lol. I still think it was pretty skimpy on the Reylo, though. Just depends on how much or how little you read into the bits that are there.
Oddly, the one thing he said that struck me hardest wasn’t about Reylo, it was about Poe. In the novel there’s a bit from Leia’s POV where she’s reading the emotions of her crew via the Force, and she senses Poe’s emotions “oscillating between pride and doubt.” I didn’t think much about it at the time, but Wayward Jedi mentioned that–obviously–this was Poe’s arc in TLJ: learning not to be reactionary and proud but to take a moment and consider the stakes and the situation as a whole; to consider what’s best for the people depending on him and not just what he wants to do. To be a leader, a symbol of hope, and not a rogue who perpetuates conflict. I knew that, but I didn’t think about the implications until now.
I always imagined that when Rey eventually brings Ben home to meet the fam, he would be instantly rejected and spat upon, because they’ll see him as Kylo Ren. I thought Finn and Poe would hate him the most, having personally been his victims. Now I realize I’m being as close-minded as I thought they would be. Poe’s arc in TLJ is setting him up to accept Ben. He might initially feel anger and pride, but he’ll quickly realize that what Ben needs–or more importantly to Poe, what the galaxy needs–is Ben’s redemption and that story of hope, and I think Poe will help facilitate that, however grudgingly. Plus the military strategist in him might see Ben and his power as an asset. If J. J. doesn’t have Poe accept Ben, he’ll have caused the character to regress, not grow.
Do you guys have any thoughts?
WJ’s gods theory is a little hard to swallow, but the storyteller/mythology lover in me adores it nonetheless. I watched the Den of Nerds video and found it less than convincing, though I did appreciate some of his points. He did win me over on the twin idea, should Reylo babies happen; twins would make poetic sense, and one will be more light, the other dark, representing a balance just like Rey and Ben themselves do. But god help me, if they’re named Luke and Leia, I am DONE.
And I find pregnant Rey a bit awkward, too. I’m not sure why; if it’s bc she’s still so canonically young, or bc Daisy Ridley is my age and I can’t fathom spawning smallish versions of myself at this point in my life, or bc Rey as a character just doesn’t seem the type… Idk, I feel like she and Ben are still so much like children themselves at this point in their development that imagining her pregnant, imagining them as parents, feels a little…wrong.
And honestly, while I love the idea of Reylo babies, I’m not sure I’d want to see them more than hinted at on screen. Ben’s redemption and he and Rey coming together to balance the Force (presumably) is going to feel like such a good ending point for the overall story that I’m not sure I’ll want it perpetuated–because if it is, there will be dollar signs stamped all over it. And this poor family will have been through so much–just let them have their happily ever after.
Monica–lol I’m not sure I’m a fan of that particular kind of music, but I agree that it was a brilliantly edited video. I liked how she fitted together all the shots of Rey and Ben.
You guys are awesome. 🙂
Okay, I had to pop by again because I just watched a video by Den of Nerds called “Reylo babies are the future Skywalkers” and it was interesting enough that I wanted to tell you both about it.
He doesn’t dive as crazy deep was WJ, and I kind of find that more to my taste, to be honest. He stays a little closer to earth. WJ is brilliant, but I think he’s shooting waaaaaaay beyond Disney’s mark. (Anakin/Ben and Padme/Rey being gods that periodically come down to the mortal plane is a bit of a stretch for me. And Rey being the literal Cosmic Force incarnate who will come back into her goddess powers in Ep 9? That…that feels way too big and overtly mystical to be Star Wars. I could be wrong, but for me it feels really unlikely to be something that crazy)
Anyway, he agrees with the twins theory and he gives some evidence for why he’s convinced they will produce offspring. I don’t agree 100% with everything, but it was an interesting and short video I thought you guys might enjoy. And I think it has pushed me more towards being okay with Reylo babies.
(As an aside, although I too have spawned smallish versions of myself and have awesome respect for the creation process, I find pregnant-Rey art soooo cringey.)
Spawned smallish versions – made me laugh out loud. It’s completely appropriately descriptive…and yes, I too don’t love pregnant Rey. I’ll have to find the video tonight. I love the idea of continuing the legacy. I hope JJ suggests enough to at least give everyone internet fodder for years. The more I digest both TFA and TLJ the clearer the message becomes that it’s all about the character arcs and balancing the force. What the Star Wars Universe has gone through for the last 40+ years is downright sad – you’ve got entire generations that have known nothing other than the “fight” (Cassian who’s been “in he fight since he was 6”, Poe who’s mother was a fighter pilot and flew with Luke back in the day, Leia’s only known the fight and I’m not sure she would know how to do anything else). The Jedi didn’t work, the sith didn’t work, the republic was tainted with greed and corruption, the senate couldn’t get much done…Grey Jedi’s Rey & Ben are definitely end game.
Reylo babies – from a balance perspective I think they’re going to have to have to have twins. And I think IX will end shortly after Ben (not Kylo) asks her to join him and she accepts (so no time for babies). There needs to be another movie that deals with post IX (and any babies that may or may not happen). BUT, in my head I can totally see them in the middle of something and both freezing because all the sudden they feel the consciousnesses of the babies…
Novel – Kylo is still SOOOO one dimensional in the novel. I get what the review is saying – it’s about the set up and intent not necessarily what is said. I just really struggle with all of the other characters actually having entire paragraphs devoted to their thoughts about a situation and Kylo has almost no insight. I’ll have to try to reread (again)…
O. M. G. “all of a sudden they feel the consciousness of the babies” THAT WOULD BE AMAZING. I wonder when Leia knew? I feel like I’ve read of that happening to different characters somewhere…like, in completely unrelated books… OH, in the last Nora Roberts book, I think. Anyway, yeah, I don’t think we’ll see Reylo babies in IX, I think the most we’ll get is Rey and Ben’s first kiss, maybe a happily-ever-after scene of their wedding at the end a la Anidala, but for some reason I doubt that. I don’t know if they’ll perpetuate the Skywalkers beyond IX. There were rumors a while back of X, XI, and XII, but I don’t know if those ever had any legitimacy to them. Now everyone’s talking about what all the newly announced movies and TV series are going to focus on, and with people divided over TLJ, I think X, XI, and XII aren’t likely to happen.
I agree, I still don’t like the way Ben was written in the novel; I still feel he got the shaft. I was just impressed with everything Wayward Jedi pulled out of what little was there. You don’t have to reread it if you don’t want to, you didn’t fail a test or anything lol
Okay, Amy, that idea alone would possibly convert me to the idea of Reylo babies. I am dying a fluttery fangirl death over here just thinking about it. I’ve thought that they should have twins, if they’re going to have babies at all, but that seals the deal for me. And I think you’re right, Danielle, they would make excellent parents just by the sheer will to overcome the mistakes of their own upbringings.
I feel like they said at the start of this trilogy that it would end the Skywalker story, and that all Star Wars movies going forward would focus on other aspects of the galaxy. But what is Star Wars without a little Skywalker SOMEWHERE out there, even if they aren’t the focus of, or even in, the next films? I think (hope?) they will leave that door open so that someday in the future they can explore it. How will the galaxy ever be in peril again without a Skywalker somehow mixed up in all of it?
I think I also read that Daisy and Adam’s contracts end with IX. That would make sense, of course, and I don’t think Disney would tell us if they planned to do more with them at this point. BUT A GIRL CAN HOPE.
Loophole – they’re Solo’s not Skywalkers (ok – it’s a stretch). And, yes, I think I also heard somewhere that they’re not doing any more trilogies following the Skywalkers. But, I did figure out how we can get this… Ben reaches out like she did in the hut (again wanting her to join him) she touches his hand (like in the hut) and we all get to see their glimpses of the future with Yoda’s voice over about how the future is in motion – we see scenes of battles, peace (not sure how you show peace), and a scene where she has her hand on her stomach and Ben looks over and SMILES. Cut back to where their hands are flat and they both clasp hands…credits roll.
Oh, the loophole! I’m gonna cling to that loophole. Hahaha I wouldn’t put it past Disney to fool us all with that Skywalker language just so they didn’t give anyone any hint that it might be Solos who go on populate the galaxy with powerfully force users. It probably isn’t, but I’m going to hold on to that loophole hope for the next year while we wait to see how it all unfolds.
Hmm…after watching his review, I think I need to re-read the Reylo scenes. They felt so sparse and cold, but Wayward Jedi’s arguments are compelling. I didn’t read much romance in the language of that second force bond session, but I guess a lot of others did? Also I haven’t kept up with the comics, so in the beginning when he reveals Leia told someone she hopes for a granddaughter was basically a huge headcannon for me.
So far I haven’t been sure where I fall on the Reylo baby bandwagon because Star Wars doesn’t have a great history with handling awesome female characters who get pregnant. I don’t want to see Rey killed or tamed for the perpetuation of the Skywalkers. I’m still not convinced, but I do want Leia to get her granddaughter. So now I’m all kinds of confused.
In regards to Poe, it’s a new perspective for me too. In my own fic, I’ve played around with some prodigal son motifs a bit and let these two sons of Leia struggle with the whole brothers-not-brothers situation. I think I even commented here saying how I thought he would be the one to resist Ben’s redemption because of his own trauma. But I also really liked Poe’s arc in TLJ (even if I don’t particularly love his character) and can see how they could be setting him up to move beyond his personal instinctive reaction for the greater good of the Resistance/galaxy. I think you’re right. It would be wasteful and thoughtless of them to fail to see that character growth through to the end.
So much to think about. Thanks for sharing that video!
I have mixed feelings about Reylo babies, too. The practical modern side of me is like, “Can we just focus on straightening out the galaxy first, please? Leave them alone. There’s plenty of time to procreate later. Let them be friends and have a relationship for a while and grow as people. The last thing we need is another rushed marriage and them having babies before they’ve even fully grown up themselves.” Then the maternal and romantic and fangirly side of me is like, “AAAWWWWWW REYLO BABIEZZZZZ!!!” lol. I think, because they both had terrible experiences with their own parents–or lack thereof–Rey and Ben will be phenomenal parents themselves. Maybe even too good, like to the point of overprotective helicoptering. Nothing will come before their children/family.
I listened to his novel review a second time while I was doing house chores, and this time my ears perked up on his point about Finn, that the entire point of Finn’s character (arguably) is to provide a precedent of non-judgment, meaning Finn was a stormtrooper and he lied about it, but the Resistance doesn’t seem to care at all, they weren’t even suspicious, all they cared about is that he renounced the Order and helped them. He helped them for selfish reasons–he got Poe out so he could get himself out, infiltrated SKBase for Rey–but that’s beside the point. So now, while I initially thought he and Poe would be at odds with Ren like you did, I’m convinced the character growth they’ve experienced will allow them to get over their grudges quickly and hopefully befriend Ben.
I’ve had exactly the same thoughts about Poe. I’ve like the character since TFA – and thought his growth in TLJ was tremendous. One of my favorite scenes was the look on Leia’s face when he’s leading them away from the fight – that look of pride. Poe is a smart enough guy to be able to see the asset that Ben is and be able to see past his own trauma. TLJ set up Poe and Rey as the leaders of the resistance. In my head I see his initial reaction as fear but quickly followed by trusting Rey and seeing the benefit and wanting Ben to join them. I want to trust JJ Abrams to continue the beautifully crafted character development that’s woven its way through the first two movies. The original trilogy has always been held as the standard for the hero’s journey…after seeing TFA and TLJ – George Lucas pales in comparison to what JJ and Rian have done. Gives me hope for IX…
(And echoing what others have said…I swear I’m not creepily stalking your blog…it’s one of the only outlets I’ve found that has intelligent Reylo conversation!)
Poor George Lucas, I feel like he had an idea he was powerless to execute (that’s a Jane Eyre quote). I don’t know much about him, but from what I’ve heard and understand, he had this gigantic idea for a story; all of this mythology and its purpose was his brain child, inspired by Joseph Campbell; and he just didn’t have the storytelling talent to tell it well. I mean, the movies he had the least involvement with–Empire, TFA, TLJ–were the most beautifully done and the favorites among fans (they’re the ones that get made fun of the least). But the premise is all his, and other people have just helped him realize it.
George’s genius has always been in the mechanics of filmmaking more than the actual writing of films. He changed movies forever with the opening scene of A New Hope, with the special effects, sound design, costuming, music, and marketing. But he’s not strong when it comes to screenwriting or even working with actors. However, the man has long-range vision and for that we must be thankful.
I’m so glad you got to enjoy Wayward Jedi’s work, Danielle. He’s really sharp and has a tremendous understanding of storytelling and mythology. It’s astonishing how much he got right in his Reylo video considering it was made before TLJ released. But that also shows just how much JJ, Rian, and Kathleen understand the mythopoetic basis upon which George founded Star Wars from the beginning. All the people complaining about the new trilogy clearly don’t understand (or don’t want to understand) how the Hero’s Journey cycle works and how these films so neatly fit it. If anything, Rian brought the story even closer to the cycle and freed up JJ to close out the cycle in spectacular fashion.
Reylo babies? Yes, please! I’d love that, but don’t think there’ll be the opportunity. OTO, I don’t put it past Disney to keep the door open to exploring the lives of Ben and Rey’s children. The offspring of such seminal figures will surely go on to lead film-worthy lives. Riiight?
As for Poe and Finn, I definitely see them as the gatekeepers to Kylo’s acceptance into the post-First Order world. (In my mind, only Rey calls him Ben; it’s an intimacy I can’t see him allowing others to have. After all, she’ll be his only family now, and that was a name used by his family members.) I do think Finn will struggle more than Poe to accept Kylo, what with his history as a stormtrooper and his affection for Rey. It would test (and strengthen) her commitment to Ben and Ben’s commitment to her, if they have to struggle a bit to win over Finn.
Oh, and here’s a little editing eye/ear candy: https://youtu.be/maDnqJuDzA8 (Alexa Lexie makes some of the best Reylo/SW fan videos I’ve seen. Enjoy!)
I love how JJ and Rian have implemented the hero’s journey. Monica, you’re right – Lucas has always pushed the bounds on the technology side. I’m about to date myself but I saw Star Wars in the theater…the first time…not the rerelease…and even at the age of 5 you knew it was changing the face of movies. His overarching mythology was incredible and at the time the fact that the storytelling was lacking in comparison to today didn’t matter. I read an article (that I can’t find now) that dissected TFA and the hero’s journey and found it facinating. You “feel” the journey when you’re watching but seeing the details in black and white gave me a deeper appreciation for exactly what JJ (and subsequently Rian) did – Rey and Ben are both in their child phase in most of TFA (his temper tantrums, her doll on Jakku, the oversized helmet, her movements, her wide eyed amazement at things, and both of them were made to look younger and more innocent). He’s moved on to the adolescent stage toward the end and he’s accepted his “quest” (which I really think is mostly her). She accepts a quest (initially going off to find Luke – notice the outfit change) but it’s not her actual quest and she doesn’t move on to the next phase until she hops in the pit (hair comes down). Her quest then becomes him. It sets up IX nicely for them both to move onto the next stage and not just look for their identity in each other but ultimately in finding balance which will allow them to come together honestly and not with an agenda (Danielle – one of my favorite line in one of yours is the one where Ben talks about the force saving them from each other’s motivations and agendas after one of their force conmections ends). The fact that she’s still in an “adolescent stage” is why none of us like the idea of her pregnant.
Monica..check out https://youtu.be/yxyUT3AllFM. It’s one of my favorite Reylo music vids.
I love this. Perfectly expressed the things that have been tumbling around in my head since TFA. And yes, I think you and Danielle are right about why we all get uncomfortable about pregnant Rey. For me it has less to do with Daisy’s age (I’m only a couple years older) but a lot to do with Rey’s canonical age and her stage in this journey. I think you hit the nail on the head with that one. It’s probably why I’ve resisted the idea of Reylo babies for so long, because right now neither of them are in a good stage of development to be thrust into parenthood.
Fortunately I think all of you are right in that Ep IX won’t go there. That would be some crazy advancement of their journey.
I think George is fantastic at concept development, and general storytelling — but not the technical execution. He’s just not a great writer. And I agree with Wayward Jedi’s theory that George is totally still involved with these films under the table. I’m certain of it. Even in TLJ documentary The Director and the Jedi, Rian gets a message that George Lucas wants to meet with him, and he seems totally unsurprised.
Monica — that video is awesome! Definitely not my style of music either but I love the editing. Amy, I’m gonna watch yours next.