So… I don’t think anyone but Luke knew that Vader died redeemed. He told Leia, and presumably Han, after the fact, but I don’t think anyone else knew. So then how did Snoke and Rey know? A million guesses as to Snoke, but Rey… I can only assume Leia told her before Rey took off to find Luke.
Hmm….
From “Bloodline” we know Leia sent a message to Ben about Vader being her and Luke’s father. Either she told Ben about Vader’s redemption at that time (the message itself isn’t revealed in the book) or Luke filled in the details after Ben received his mother’s message. So I think both Snoke and Rey learned about the redemption directly from Ben’s mind, Snoke forcibly and Rey as part of the infodump she got during Kylo’s interrogation on Starkiller Base.
I hadn’t considered that possibly, but I highly doubt Snoke learned of it from Ben; he watched the Empire rise and fall and learned from Palpatine’s and Vader’s mistakes, used their failures to build the Order and instruct Ben. I don’t know how, but I guarantee he knew before Ben was even conceived. He was so obsessed with Vader and power that he probably knew everything about the Force and Anakin Skywalker–maybe more than anyone. He probably understood how Anakin came to be and why, and it was part of the reason he coveted that bloodline and the power it was capable of. That’s how Snoke’s skull cracked open–it wasn’t adequate to contain such a vast amount of knowledge and secrets. lol
However, it’s very possible that Rey somehow got the information from Ben–but I tend to doubt that, too. I don’t think she got an infodump during the interrogation–though I could be wrong. As I understood it, while he was searching her mind, he felt that she was afraid of him, of his power, of feeling helpless. He felt her fear, and because he had compassion for her, he sympathized, acknowledged it, and tried to alleviate it–“Don’t be afraid. I feel it, too.” Everything he did–or didn’t do–during that interrogation hinged on the fact that he didn’t want her to fear or distrust him. That compassion was the weak link in his chainmail, and that shared fear provided her with a bridge into his mind. He unwittingly taught her how to mind-probe, though she didn’t realize it; she acted, mentally, on pure instinct. And that’s why, as soon as she got in his head, the first and only coherent thought she determined was his fear of never being as strong as Darth Vader. She followed the thread of fear that connected them and arrived at that thought. After that, she was only able to sense his shock, concern, and finally apprehension before he severed the connection.
Ren considered Vader’s sentiment a weakness at that point, so it wouldn’t have factored into the strength he wanted to emulate; he considered Vader’s darkness his strength. So I don’t think that thought would have given Rey any indication of Vader’s redemption.
While they were connected, though, she somehow absorbed some of Ben’s other Force abilities, and I’m not sure how to explain that yet, so it’s possible she got some relevant information as well. You could very well be right. But for now, I maintain the assumption that someone told her. Leia most likely, though Chewie’s a possibility, and even Han, though that’s slim. It couldn’t have been Luke, not with the weird look of disappointment, impatience, and exasperation on his face when she brought it up during the second lesson.
You really got my noggin going, Monica, thanks 🙂
*snicker* I keep hearing Carrie Fisher muttering, “Well, fuck, Rey. What did my asshole son do now?”
I’m not convinced Leia would share her family’s drama/trauma with anyone, especially a stranger, without a clear need. (And Rey *is* still a stranger to her, even after Han’s death.) The galaxy’s reaction to Vader being her father was so swift and absolute in Bloodline, and she, Han, and Luke kept that knowledge a secret for so long, I feel like Daddy Vader isn’t something Leia would discuss readily. Hell, the Galactic Senate essentially forced her out the minute they learned Vader was her biological father, which is why she’s running around with the Resistance and avoided being blown to bits by Starkiller Base. I’m not sure Chewie knows. I don’t recall it being mentioned in Bloodline; I feel like it was only Han, Leia, and Luke who had that information until the other senator came across a private message from Bail Organa to Leia.
Hmm, infodump was a poor choice of words on my part. I think it’s more that she picked up emotions from Kylo with varying degrees of clarity — that fear of not living up to Vader, of course, being primary. But there could’ve been other nebulous feelings and ideas regarding Vader that crept through, too. I agree that Kylo though Vader’s sentiment was a weakness, but couldn’t his own rising compassion create an unconscious awareness that he shares Grand Daddy’s weakness? If that was bubbling around in his subconscious, it could’ve spilled over to Rey. Thus she knows Vader was sentimental/compassionate and redeemed, but she couldn’t necessarily explain how she knows that.
(I’m not sure I’m making sense. It’s late. I might be blathering.)
I feel like Leia sat Rey down and explained a ton of stuff before she sent her off with Chewie. Or maybe Chewie knew and explained it on the way? I can sorta see that too.
No idea with Snoke. Just hand-wavy General ominiscient villainy, I suppose.